When it's stated as a command I have a hard time coming up with a scenario where it's not condescending, regardless of the genders involved. I think I've only ever said the phrase in jest, and even then, rarely.
Thanks for the shout out and for many new insights, Eric. I especially like the art of arrangiarsi—something I have not ever been able to explain to outsiders. It’s a nice complement to the bella figura concept and to tranquilla (I usually hear the feminine form), as you explain it. One need be flessibile, non, to survive in Italy?
Yes! I have a vague idea of a future post on how to recognize the new arrivals who'll probably manage to carve out a life here and those who won't make it and one of the central ideas I have is that if people are too rigid, they won't make it. It would be like someone's immune system rejecting an incompatible organ transplant.
The meatballs! I hope my brain can forget that part of the story.
Other than that you named a bunch of my husband’s favorite foods. Ossobucco has special memories for us. A favorite friend of ours, Tom, used to make it for us and it was DELICIOUS. I usually don’t eat veal so he would make mine with lamb; but anyway, ossobucco is difficult to find on a menu in most of the US. Most restaurants here in central Florida make it with pork when we can find it. It’s not the same as our friend’s from scratch, but still good. Tom’s ossobucco also was made con cariño as my husband would say, which can’t be substituted.
Tiramisù is another that my husband asks for that was mentioned in your article. He’s just fine with the one from the Publix bakery. Lol.
Italy truly has the best food in the world in my opinion. Even vegetables, I always say no one makes vegetables as delicious as the Italians. Roasted veggies, marinated or drizzled with balsamic, escarole pie, eggplant…
I hear you on the meatballs! I love 'em here: in bianco (lemon sauce), al sugo (as in the photo). When the reader told me that old story a few months back I told her she was breaking my heart. But I've been reassured enough times that that was something from another era that I'm back to ordering them!
Thank you, Eric, for sharing my photo and the mention! I always look forward to seeing your name in my inbox and enjoy every single one of your pieces! I still very much remember my first trip to the questura in Rome and had a very similar exchange with one of the workers, "but you're last name is Italian, but you... aren't?!" haha!
Hey Eric, I say this with all the love in my heart - the questura guy knew you weren’t Italian because you mixed your grammar “lei sei pronto” is using both the formal and informal together. And usually when you enter a room or a house, you say “permesso”. I hope this helps! 😍
Besides, it was no secret I was a non-Italian ... everyone in line was, by definition. I think he was definitely mad about not being able to finish reading the paper (plus, if I remember correctly, both AS Roma and Lazio lost that weekend ... I could look that up to be sure).
Of course, I don't have that Questura experience recorded and I didn't take notes at the time. So I was trying to recreate the scene based on what seems like pretty vivid memories of it. I included the grammatical error on purpose to illustrate to those who'd notice (you're the first to mention it) that at that time I was a foreigner who'd only been in Italy a few months. I was undecided between "Lei sei pronto?" and "Lei pronto?" and I chose the first because it seemed more like what I'd say.
In this part of the story, I hadn't actually walked into his office yet. But even when I did, I wouldn't have said "permesso." Isn't that right? Someone's home, yes, or a more personal space. But an office where there are dozens of people in line? Would you say "permesso" in that circumstance?
Always a pleasure to read you, Eric! I'm a wellspring of stories... so never to hesitate to ask for more of them. And thanks for setting the record straight on cappuccino after noon. That is not and has never been a rule, and they can very cozy mid-afternoon on a winter day. After dinner is just heavy and bizarre for a population obsessed with digestion.... but no one will stop you!
My problem is a lack of time to write more than a shortage of ideas. But I still love talking about this kind of thing so I’ll take you up on the offer!
Re the surname, one of those threads suggests there *might* be a link: you'd describe something μακρό or μακρή as long or tall etc. - > "great, high" reference to Gods -> "exalted, blessed".
Looks like a long shot to me. But well, μακάρι ;-)
Anita, I did a quick search in Italian and this came up. It’s from μακάριος (macarios, for those who can’t read Greek) which apparently means “beato / felice” happy / blessed.
Yes, that connection to μακάριος seems to come up a lot! The word is still used in modern Greek (in Cyprus, at least), Oddly enough it often refers to someone who's passed away, mostly as a verb (εμακάρισεν). Questionable logic, to suggest that you're happy and blessed when you're gone from this life, but there you go :)
Someone has to have to have been a pretty despicable character for people not to say they'd lived a noble and worthwhile life after they're gone. I think that's pretty universal.
Having gone through the green card process in the United States with my mother and my husband, I will tell you, Italian immigration is a spa experience in comparison. Every time I deal with it or anything medical here (as someone who has a severe autoimmune disease) I praise Jesus about how easy it is compared to what my family has to go through every five years in the US. The medical system here is so easy to use, doctors have always done everything in the power to make sure I get the care I need. The neglect I went through in the US and the amount of medical debt I have has rendered it impossible for me to ever move back there. I would say the weirdest thing I experienced when I first moved here was going out with the friends group and the table of 10-12 was always segregated by men and women, but I do live in a small town. I love that I can openly hate Israel and Zionism here without being screamed at that I am a terrorist or anti-semite.
My Dominican relatives seem to do OK with U.S. customs ... and I also don't think it's particularly difficult here now that I know what to do (it helps that there's a special process for accredited journalists).
I agree 100% with your healthcare comment! I alway thought that resistance to seeing access to healthcare as a human right is one of the most puzzling aspects of U.S. culture (resistance to gun control is another, as well as a disinterest in travel, a willingness to eat poison in the form of mass-produced food ... I could go on).
I saw a sign at a protest once that said something like "Universal health care is so complicated that only 32 of the world's 33 large, industrialized countries have managed to make it work."
When I lived in Rome in the late 80s/early 90s, we had to pay all of our household bollette (bills) at the post office. Every month. Now, those were some lines!
That was before my time, but I do remember not being able to pay online -- you'd have to go to a bank or a tobbacaio. I asked once people then why we couldn't just mail a check (we did that ten in Peru, where I lived before moving to Italy) and people said "then we'd miss the human contact!" What human contact? The clerk almost always acted like he/she didn't want to be there!
I don't know if it's still true. But it used to be true that La Gazzetta dell Sport was the most widely distributed newspaper in Italy on Mondays. The other six days, it's Corriere della Sera.
interesting.... I pity you the long lines at the ufficio stranieri... I learned back in the early 70s if my future father in law in his high officer's uniform came with me, it was all so easy
I bet that would help! That's another rule: it's not what you know it's who you know!
I still have to renew my permesso every two years, but it's much easier now since they have a special process for credentialed journalists. But for most non-Europeans who want to be here legally, it's a real pain.
Im hoping Vatican and UK journalists pick up the story of the 1512 monument in Vetralla with arms of Henry VIII, Pope Julius II and the English ambassador Cardinal Bainbridge. Ive done articles on substack, video too https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7ehY3YyZRfg min 2,20
Regarding the person you saw reading a newspaper on the job, we Italians would be grateful if you could report it to the appropriate authorities. That behavior is unacceptable. I also want to emphasize that people who act like that are a small minority—just as in any country. By contrast, the vast majority of Italians are hardworking and dedicated; indeed, despite the many challenges our country faces, Italy remains one of the best places to live. Baci dall'Italia :-)
I don't think I could report the guy whose name I can't remember for something that happened 25 years ago!
Over the years, some people I've told this story to have been appalled, as you are. Some thought it was funny (mostly Romans who are accustomed to this kind of thing). But most people could imagine it happening, especially in Rome and especially in that period.
I had dinner with some friends visiting from Milan a few days ago and they said it always feels like the "Wild West" when they come to Rome. I can understand that.
Anyway, we agree 100% on Italy being among the best places to live! I could live anywhere, but I choose to be here.
"Magari" is such a great entire paragraph of a word, and entirely impossible to substitute. I particularly enjoy it when it implies a whole back story of regret and hope, all in the tone of delivery.
I have huge respect for Italian builders/electicians/plumbers and their ability to plan out all the stages of a job down to split-second timing. as well as their craftsmanship.
I agree with your friend that a young woman in shorts can get away with murder here, but I'm also learning that being a middleaged woman with grey hair can cut you quite a lot of slack too. Not with plumbers (mine will chat with me, but only allow my son outlaw to make decisions), but with officialdom, it can sometimes be useful to remind them of their Mamma.
Thank you for the mention, I love reading your take on Italian life!
When a man says 'stai calma' to me, there is going to be a stabbing.
You aren't the only one ...
Stai calma!
Just kidding! I don't know if I'd commit a homicide if someone -- man or woman -- said that to me, but I doubt I'd take it well.
There is a level of misogyny when a man says it to a woman
When it's stated as a command I have a hard time coming up with a scenario where it's not condescending, regardless of the genders involved. I think I've only ever said the phrase in jest, and even then, rarely.
Thanks for the shout out and for many new insights, Eric. I especially like the art of arrangiarsi—something I have not ever been able to explain to outsiders. It’s a nice complement to the bella figura concept and to tranquilla (I usually hear the feminine form), as you explain it. One need be flessibile, non, to survive in Italy?
Yes! I have a vague idea of a future post on how to recognize the new arrivals who'll probably manage to carve out a life here and those who won't make it and one of the central ideas I have is that if people are too rigid, they won't make it. It would be like someone's immune system rejecting an incompatible organ transplant.
Great analogy! I look forward to reading that one.
Well said, Etta 😍
The meatballs! I hope my brain can forget that part of the story.
Other than that you named a bunch of my husband’s favorite foods. Ossobucco has special memories for us. A favorite friend of ours, Tom, used to make it for us and it was DELICIOUS. I usually don’t eat veal so he would make mine with lamb; but anyway, ossobucco is difficult to find on a menu in most of the US. Most restaurants here in central Florida make it with pork when we can find it. It’s not the same as our friend’s from scratch, but still good. Tom’s ossobucco also was made con cariño as my husband would say, which can’t be substituted.
Tiramisù is another that my husband asks for that was mentioned in your article. He’s just fine with the one from the Publix bakery. Lol.
Italy truly has the best food in the world in my opinion. Even vegetables, I always say no one makes vegetables as delicious as the Italians. Roasted veggies, marinated or drizzled with balsamic, escarole pie, eggplant…
I hear you on the meatballs! I love 'em here: in bianco (lemon sauce), al sugo (as in the photo). When the reader told me that old story a few months back I told her she was breaking my heart. But I've been reassured enough times that that was something from another era that I'm back to ordering them!
Thank you, Eric, for sharing my photo and the mention! I always look forward to seeing your name in my inbox and enjoy every single one of your pieces! I still very much remember my first trip to the questura in Rome and had a very similar exchange with one of the workers, "but you're last name is Italian, but you... aren't?!" haha!
Hey Eric, I say this with all the love in my heart - the questura guy knew you weren’t Italian because you mixed your grammar “lei sei pronto” is using both the formal and informal together. And usually when you enter a room or a house, you say “permesso”. I hope this helps! 😍
Always say permesso and you can’t go wrong 🥰
Besides, it was no secret I was a non-Italian ... everyone in line was, by definition. I think he was definitely mad about not being able to finish reading the paper (plus, if I remember correctly, both AS Roma and Lazio lost that weekend ... I could look that up to be sure).
I'm glad you noticed that!
Of course, I don't have that Questura experience recorded and I didn't take notes at the time. So I was trying to recreate the scene based on what seems like pretty vivid memories of it. I included the grammatical error on purpose to illustrate to those who'd notice (you're the first to mention it) that at that time I was a foreigner who'd only been in Italy a few months. I was undecided between "Lei sei pronto?" and "Lei pronto?" and I chose the first because it seemed more like what I'd say.
In this part of the story, I hadn't actually walked into his office yet. But even when I did, I wouldn't have said "permesso." Isn't that right? Someone's home, yes, or a more personal space. But an office where there are dozens of people in line? Would you say "permesso" in that circumstance?
Always a pleasure to read you, Eric! I'm a wellspring of stories... so never to hesitate to ask for more of them. And thanks for setting the record straight on cappuccino after noon. That is not and has never been a rule, and they can very cozy mid-afternoon on a winter day. After dinner is just heavy and bizarre for a population obsessed with digestion.... but no one will stop you!
My problem is a lack of time to write more than a shortage of ideas. But I still love talking about this kind of thing so I’ll take you up on the offer!
Ok, so this one took me into a little rabbit hole on magari, which I knew must be linked to the Greek μακάρι - I think you'll enjoy this: http://www.kypros.org/LearnGreek/mod/forum/discuss.php?d=5534
Wow! How cool is that? There isn't much I like more than learning something new!
So, is μακάρι connected to your surname in some way? Are you Blessed Anita?
Re the surname, one of those threads suggests there *might* be a link: you'd describe something μακρό or μακρή as long or tall etc. - > "great, high" reference to Gods -> "exalted, blessed".
Looks like a long shot to me. But well, μακάρι ;-)
Anita, I did a quick search in Italian and this came up. It’s from μακάριος (macarios, for those who can’t read Greek) which apparently means “beato / felice” happy / blessed.
Yes, that connection to μακάριος seems to come up a lot! The word is still used in modern Greek (in Cyprus, at least), Oddly enough it often refers to someone who's passed away, mostly as a verb (εμακάρισεν). Questionable logic, to suggest that you're happy and blessed when you're gone from this life, but there you go :)
PS: that link still works for me...try again?
Someone has to have to have been a pretty despicable character for people not to say they'd lived a noble and worthwhile life after they're gone. I think that's pretty universal.
Oh yes, and I'm glad you said that - I meant / I think the word describes the afterlife as happy and blessed...
That makes a lot more sense …
I’m so curious! But the link doesn’t work. I studied Latin and Greek and love looking up word origins. P.S. Magri means slim in Italian (plural).
My wife's step-father is Greek ... I'll ask him about this next time we talk. So interesting!
Having gone through the green card process in the United States with my mother and my husband, I will tell you, Italian immigration is a spa experience in comparison. Every time I deal with it or anything medical here (as someone who has a severe autoimmune disease) I praise Jesus about how easy it is compared to what my family has to go through every five years in the US. The medical system here is so easy to use, doctors have always done everything in the power to make sure I get the care I need. The neglect I went through in the US and the amount of medical debt I have has rendered it impossible for me to ever move back there. I would say the weirdest thing I experienced when I first moved here was going out with the friends group and the table of 10-12 was always segregated by men and women, but I do live in a small town. I love that I can openly hate Israel and Zionism here without being screamed at that I am a terrorist or anti-semite.
Yes! We were puzzled by the segregation between men and women too, but it seems it’s just the way in small towns and now i actually prefer it!
My Dominican relatives seem to do OK with U.S. customs ... and I also don't think it's particularly difficult here now that I know what to do (it helps that there's a special process for accredited journalists).
I agree 100% with your healthcare comment! I alway thought that resistance to seeing access to healthcare as a human right is one of the most puzzling aspects of U.S. culture (resistance to gun control is another, as well as a disinterest in travel, a willingness to eat poison in the form of mass-produced food ... I could go on).
I saw a sign at a protest once that said something like "Universal health care is so complicated that only 32 of the world's 33 large, industrialized countries have managed to make it work."
Very well written, thanks for sharing it with us 🫶
Thank you! Are any "regole non scritte" that come to mind from your experience?
Blue suits in the office, ideally in a bright navy shade. This is more true in the North than elsewhere in Italy, though. Also valid for weddings!
Oh my, you took me back to 1998 in Venice and waited forever for our permesso!!
The experience here wasn't too long after yours! I think that story dates to around January of 2000.
Yeah, someone hasn't experienced bureaucracy until they've experienced Italian bureaucracy!
So cool about te '06 Olympics! Will you go next year.
Agreed that the unwritten rules show how much you know a culture.
Yes, I'll be there! I'm really looking forward to it!
When I lived in Rome in the late 80s/early 90s, we had to pay all of our household bollette (bills) at the post office. Every month. Now, those were some lines!
That was before my time, but I do remember not being able to pay online -- you'd have to go to a bank or a tobbacaio. I asked once people then why we couldn't just mail a check (we did that ten in Peru, where I lived before moving to Italy) and people said "then we'd miss the human contact!" What human contact? The clerk almost always acted like he/she didn't want to be there!
hahah. It's still the same with Gazzetta dello Sport, but now people read it on their Tablets.
I didn't realize I helped, but you're welcome!
I don't know if it's still true. But it used to be true that La Gazzetta dell Sport was the most widely distributed newspaper in Italy on Mondays. The other six days, it's Corriere della Sera.
interesting.... I pity you the long lines at the ufficio stranieri... I learned back in the early 70s if my future father in law in his high officer's uniform came with me, it was all so easy
I bet that would help! That's another rule: it's not what you know it's who you know!
I still have to renew my permesso every two years, but it's much easier now since they have a special process for credentialed journalists. But for most non-Europeans who want to be here legally, it's a real pain.
You should have seen them snap to attention !! no problems after that...it also helped that I got married to his son a few years later.
Im hoping Vatican and UK journalists pick up the story of the 1512 monument in Vetralla with arms of Henry VIII, Pope Julius II and the English ambassador Cardinal Bainbridge. Ive done articles on substack, video too https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7ehY3YyZRfg min 2,20
Regarding the person you saw reading a newspaper on the job, we Italians would be grateful if you could report it to the appropriate authorities. That behavior is unacceptable. I also want to emphasize that people who act like that are a small minority—just as in any country. By contrast, the vast majority of Italians are hardworking and dedicated; indeed, despite the many challenges our country faces, Italy remains one of the best places to live. Baci dall'Italia :-)
I don't think I could report the guy whose name I can't remember for something that happened 25 years ago!
Over the years, some people I've told this story to have been appalled, as you are. Some thought it was funny (mostly Romans who are accustomed to this kind of thing). But most people could imagine it happening, especially in Rome and especially in that period.
I had dinner with some friends visiting from Milan a few days ago and they said it always feels like the "Wild West" when they come to Rome. I can understand that.
Anyway, we agree 100% on Italy being among the best places to live! I could live anywhere, but I choose to be here.
"Magari" is such a great entire paragraph of a word, and entirely impossible to substitute. I particularly enjoy it when it implies a whole back story of regret and hope, all in the tone of delivery.
I have huge respect for Italian builders/electicians/plumbers and their ability to plan out all the stages of a job down to split-second timing. as well as their craftsmanship.
I agree with your friend that a young woman in shorts can get away with murder here, but I'm also learning that being a middleaged woman with grey hair can cut you quite a lot of slack too. Not with plumbers (mine will chat with me, but only allow my son outlaw to make decisions), but with officialdom, it can sometimes be useful to remind them of their Mamma.
Thank you for the mention, I love reading your take on Italian life!
I still laugh about your “spleen” comment from last time around!
And I’m definitely with you on “magari”!