This is one of my mother's big complaints in the U.S. She doesn't go to the opera, but she never gets tired of complaining about the way people dress when they go to church.
I had an old professor at university in Rome who would take a break halfway through class (a 5 hour studio art course) to go down to the bar to have a cappuccino at 5 pm. It was his merenda and all the women at the bar knew to have it ready when he arrived.
I also had a colleague who would have a cappuccino in place of eating at lunch everyday. It seems that you can have a cappuccino at any time, but it’s a substitute for eating!
I think the rule about cappuccini in the afternoon is broadly true but as you say, it's not universal. But my theory is that it's over-communicated because it's easy to explain and many visitors like feeling like they're in the know.
I am 100% Italian and I can assure you that there is plenty of Italians who love to have a cappuccino after 11:00 a.m. The social media have drummed this myth for years. However they seem to forget that Italy has plenty of regions where it's really cold in the winter and a nice hot cappuccino is welcome any time of the day. What is truly more unusual is to see Italians drinking a cappuccino after lunch or dinner. This is because Italians appreciate a drink that helps digestion like espresso or an amaro. Cappuccino is considered heavy when the stomach is already full.
I'm on your side, Letizia. I've seen more than a few commentators here on Substack and elsewhere pointing out the "cappuccino rule" as if it was a real insight. If there has to be a rule, it should probably be to avoid a cappuccino after a big meal. But it could also be to avoid hot chocolate or a latte macchiato or eggnog after a big meal.
Exactly!! So true, foreigners put too much emphasis on the so-called cappuccino rule making it sound like an eccentricity. Matching foods however is an underestimated art! If we don't make a nice big fuss over what goes in our stomachs, what should we make a fuss over?
I'm guilty on the ice charge. I usually ask for ice with my bottled water. It's my American weakness. I must have my drinks cold and in this heat, water rises in temperature in a hurry. However, they always bring it. I've never seen any raised eyebrows. I like your glass cup idea. But I've found Rome bars always put the right amount of milk.
You should hear what they say after you leave, John! Haha.
Seriously, I go through water so quickly in hot weather that it doesn't have time to warm up. I usually get sparkling water and I don't like it diluted, plus I've come to dislike it when the ice touches my teeth.
When I was deep in the renovation of my Venice house I figured out if the engineer or workers said “è casa tua” (we had all agreed to drop the lei when I had no floor or stairs & workers arrived before 7am) meant, that is a horrible idea. Now the house is (almost) finished & everyone can see my vision they have almost come around saying non è male, meaning I don’t hate it. I have even gotten a few Ma è proprio bello signora!
That is very cool! Not just that you understood the workers' "code," but that your vision of what the house should become was the correct one. I bet you already have dozens of stories to tell. Will you write a post about the project once it's all finished?
Your reflection about learning these unwritten rules made me think about children with autism and the difficulty they sometimes have with social cues. Understanding those feelings through cross-cultural experiential learning might be a way to build empathy in educators - or at least some lightbulb moments!
What an interesting insight, Jani! I would have never thought of that, but I can see the connection. I wonder if there's any difference in the way autistic children adapt to different cultures. Do you know? I'd be very curious to know more about that.
I didn’t know the term for “l'arte dell'arrangiarsi,” but it’s one of my favourite things about Italy. I’ve spent enough time here to expect problems and inconveniences. But I love how Italians always find a way to fix or circumvent those things, often in the most creative ways!
When Turin hosted the Winter Olympics 19 years ago, workers were still painting the press center and installing the last of the toilets when the journalists began arriving a day or two before the opening ceremonies. I think it's going to be the same story in Milan/Cortina next year. But, somehow, it'll all get done just in the nick of time.
I know Spain more than Italy, but I can think of a few rules that are true both places, like great respect for elders. Other ones like ""strategic lateness" and respect for mealtime are true here and there.
Yeah, I think a lot of what I wrote is sort of common across the Mediterranean. I don't know Greece well and have never been to Cyprus, but I'm guessing they're along the same lines.
Colpi d’aria drive me nuts, also don’t sweat because you’ll catch a chill and die thing (when my daughter was at elementary school they never had outdoor recess in case they sweated, caught a chill and died), and also the way everyone is convinced they know when their spleen is hurting- does anyone in any other country even know where their spleen is?? I am not thrilled that ice in drinks is so widespread now, because I hate it and don’t appreciate my drink being diluted. But these are minor things, and what I do appreciate is the Italian approach to food and drink generally, as well as l’arte di arrangiarsi which means that hope is never lost :)
In fact, Louise, I'd be very curious to know your take on my previous post on tipping rules in Italy. Scroll back a little -- it's called "The Tipping Point."
Ooh, good topic! I think tipping is tricky - I would normally always leave a small tip at the bar for coffee, but now I pay for everything with my phone that’s gone, and I often feel bad about it. But I definitely don’t want someone asking if I want to add a tip every time I go to pay. Restaurants are another minefield - if it’s somewhere I don’t know it’s easy to leave a 10 percent tip, but when, as with your experience with your friends, you are known, extras are added, and there’s a discount on the bill - then it all becomes more awkward.
Hahah! I love the spleen comment! I've heard that and if I'd thought of it while I was writing I would have included it. So funny. Thank you.
I agree 100% on ice and colpi d’aria, etc., but your wider point about attitudes is the crux of everything. It's what makes Italians Italian. Thank you for commenting! I'm still laughing about the spleen comment!
The mad thing is I actually know - I had hepatitis when I was young and a swollen spleen is one of the side-effects. However, I’ve never been aware of it again, so I doubt the rest of the population has either - it’s called plain old indigestion people, embrace the ordinary!
I still struggle with the wet hair / when you’re sick cover your throat rules. Some of the ladies at school will still give me slight looks, but they don’t say anything to me anymore. And half the time I put on a scarf just to make them happy!
I find that rules silly -- especially when it's hot out. It can be like an overnight outside and people still think you'll get influenza if your hair is wet!
One of my favourites from years ago was listening to an Italian girl explaining why nobody wanted to wear seat belts in cars in Italy. It went something like this:
"If I get into a car with a male driver, like my boyfriend, and I put the seatbelt on, it means I don't trust his driving and he will be offended and annoyed at me.
If HE gets in the car to drive and puts his seatbelt on, it means he doesn't trust his own driving, so then I'D be scared!
But what do they have to say about the OTHER DRIVER? The one who runs into them head on? Of course, I have learned that Italian logic is nothing like American logic. And to think that it is is completely illogical!
Thank you! I agree that the unwritten rules keep evolving… Do you think many of those are due to pressure from US tourist culture? Internet? Takeaway or to go coffee seems to be one example…
This is an excellent question. I do think Italian and U.S. culture seem to be adopting some of the worst aspects each other's cultures. If you look at one of my newsletter's previous posts (the one called "The Tipping Point") it's about that. Take a look at it -- I'd be curious to know your opinion on that front.
Regardless, there's no doubt foreign influence is chipping away at the culture.
I do see take-away or delivered coffee here but it's usually meant to consumed in some other place. I rarely if ever see people drinking coffee as they walk. Maybe it's because an espresso is gone in two sips. But I'm pleased that practice hasn't been adopted.
Hey, I, too, have seen the take-away coffee (and the signs for it), or I would not have given that example. I started going to Italy in the 1980s as a student (yes, I’m OLD) and have led several adult groups during the last 10+ years. Regardless of how much I try to prepare first-time Italy travelers, the coffee world is always a surprise. BUT, I was also surprised in 2009 to see what you described—when some Sicilian students I was teaching went to “pick up” coffee for several of us, which they brought back on a nicely-wrapped little tray—all disposable items, but wrapped to stay warm so that we could all consume our espressos together, in the same few seconds . . . Since then, I’ve seen tourists with take-away cups of cappuccino—probably only in Venice, Pisa, and Florence. I was wondering about other items.
Since you mentioned it, one other item is tipping. Have you seen that change? I read another Substack article earlier this spring, and it really surprised me by what it advocated for tips. Unfortunately, I don’t seem to be able to access your prior article on tipping . . . Can you send me the link? I would really like to read it and to share it!
Thanks, and I’m delighted to have found your newsletter, thanks to @Alecia Stevens having reposted it!
I saw you found the article; I'll be curious to know your feedback. I think the other article you read it linked to in my article. Take a look at the comments as well ... it's all interesting.
I’d go further. It’s not simply „chipping away“. From some quarters we have e clear evidence that „foreign influence“ is despised and unwanted. There‘s huge kick-back.
There’s a difference between tolerance (cappuccinos at lunch) with actual, structural change.
I couldn't agree more ... There's a great line in The Sun Also Rises from Mike, a secondary character who' asked how he went bankrupt. He said there were two ways, "Gradually and then suddenly." I feel like cultural traditions disappear the same way.
Great article as usual, I love the polizia story. My contribution is dress, Italians dress well and you stand out to them when you don’t. Italian men would never go out in the standard American garb of shorts, t-shirt and cap, although this seems a bit less so in the far south. And my wife confirms from her trips to the hairstylist that going out with wet hair will definitely kill you. As for the cappuccino rule, I wonder if it applies to our favorite coffee popular in Firenze, the macchiatone, since it’s basically a half cappuccino.
I’ve been preoccupied lately so hopefully you’ll indulge a comment on your other recent posts. Great podcast on tipping and once again, you are right but no native Italians were included. Check out this post on reddit: “Quanto è comune lasciare mance ai camerieri?” Over 100 Italians responded and I read the consensus as: No tipping except for extraordinary service or small amounts rounding up, and please don’t bring that terrible American practice over here.
Thank you, Stewart! Well, I already know we agree when it comes to tipping so I won't go into that.
Your point about having too few Italians weighing in on these discussions is well taken. The language is a huge factor, for sure. And my Italian is good, but not good enough to produce an Italian edition of the newsletter. I already spend too much time on it as it is. But I'd love to have more Italians reading and making comments. So if you know any English-speaking Italians please pass the word!
I know the macchiatone, but I've never had one outside of Florence. I think the closest thing here is a "caffe molto macchiato" or a "caffe schiumato" ... I love that these regional differences exist and I hope they remain.
I think this point about language is not only a huge factor in participation of native Italian speakers in these discussions, it is decisive. Cultural understanding is embedded in the language.
May I add to the debate by throwing in some (provocative) ideas & observations?
By definition the above is taken to means that if English speakers do not fundamentally understand the Italian language they also cannot understand Italian culture. Further, if they did, they would be speaking / writing in Italian. It follows, that if you cannot speak the language, i.e. have not learnt or acquired knowledge of the culture you’re talking about in any deep, meaningful way, then you are not qualified to talk about it! In recent weeks we‘ve heard this from some native Italian Substackers and some „outsiders-gone-native“, with some force!
Most (not all) of the comments here (in response to your questions) demonstrate a superficial understanding of Italian culture. Many are made from a „tourist“ point of view or experience, by definition an outsider, perspective. And some, happily, show curiosity for wanting to learn about it which is to be embraced!!! So input from „insiders“ would be embraced.
Interesting is, that in recent weeks there has been some aggressive moves from some Substackers, to prove this point, by responding and participating in debates amongst English speakers about Italy, as above, playing around with using Italian phrases and words in English texts to show a certain superiority of cultural understanding, then by writing in Italian, which of course makes participation for those who cannot converse in Italian, inaccessible. And, in some cases, by actually telling English speakers / Substackers who write in English language, that they are not qualified about Italian culture (by the very fact they do write in English demonstrates outsider status!). It‘s tautological, with no winner. This might be one explanation for why you don’t have )m/any) native Italians participating: the view that „if it‘s not in Italian, it is not meaningful (to us) and has no relevance“.
Returning to your original questions, I agree that insights into „the unwritten social rules“ are very interesting, and there is much value to be gained in sharing experiences between English-writing Substackers on this topic. (The irony is, unwritten then gets written! presumably the reason for your research questions?).
I take the liberty to add: there is certainly, absolutely, no exclusion of native Italians if they want to participate (in discussing this or any other Italy-related cultural issue in English )! An inter-cultural debate would not only be welcomed but it would be enriching for both.
This is the most comprehensive comment I've ever received!
Your point on the language is well taken. I speak Italian well: I've tested at a C1 level and I read books and articles in Italian and in many ways I live as an Italian in a neighborhood with few foreigners. But I could never write this newsletter in Italian.
I have noticed some of the rage from Italians against foreigners who comment about Italy. I've even been a target of it on some previous posts here and on other fora (mostly Reddit). I'm not sure I completely understand it but I'm going to keep trying to.
I am guilty of cajoling Italian friends to comment on articles more than with non-Italian friends. There have been a few comments along the way in Italian from readers who read English but who (like me) prefer not to write for the public in their second or third language. I hope to get more Italian readers over time, though as you correctly point out they will automatically be from a specific subset of Italians.
I also like your comment about writing about unwritten rules. There's a lawyer trick where they'll ask someone a question like, "Have you ever thought of killing your husband?" And even if the witness never had that thought, they had to have it when asked. Still, I mean these rules aren't official anywhere. Like the Italian statute says, "Don't run a red light" but the real rule is "Don't do it in front of a cop."
I enjoyed your long and thoughtful comment. Thank you.
Your comments on language competency are spot on. And I saw it work also the other way, where the complainers were essentially vying to write in Italian (rather than battle with AI-English.) But, by so doing, instead of staying in the debate, they shot themselves in the foot, and lost touch, evidence being in reader/like numbers! But now I see a new strategy developing … which fuels the debate !
I believe I understand where the rage comes from but it’s very complex. I’m writing about it.
I’m genuinely interested in the community you are drawing/addressing becoming more “culturally-empathic” and cohesive.
In the end, it’s not important if comments are obviously “outsider” comments, rather, that through debate “outsiders” are sensitized to the cultural issues and are willing to learn to respect conformity if they want to be really accepted. Here, for some types, there will be challenges.
Conversely, the same transformation is needed from “insiders”. And therein lies some difficulties, yet to be resolved…
Interestingly, we are talking about some of the same principles of tolerance that are needed anywhere in the world where there is conflict between people and their cultures….
I like your comment about the lawyer’s trick. It makes me smile because (as well as architecture, design & business) I studied law. And so I when I made this comment I was aware of, but could not avoid, the implication! I can reassure you though that I never had any inclination to be a policewoman 😂
I recall your story about the stop sign and the heinous crime that was committed while right in front of the police. I feel like you told that no more than a month ago. It is a good one. A great example about the importance the Italians put on respeto in their culture. Keep writing, I keep reading
Thanks, Donovan! Yes, good memory! I think I sent you the video linked to in the story a few weeks back when I first posted it on YouTube. Does that sound correct?
When I first moved to the U.S. I couldnt understand why all the kids laughed when I told my mom I'd be home late .... "arrivo in ritardo." Now the Italian sounds funny to me.
Yeah, that's a word that sounded weird to me when I first learned it. Same with "lardo" ... I can imagine your confusion when the kids first started giggling at you. "What? Everyone's late sometimes? What's the big deal?" Haha.
I would like to read your ? Next? article about tipping. I work with tourists. Someone somewhere seems to have written that tipping is not the done thing in Italy which is totally untrue. I am an italian citizen of anglophile origin and have lived here for 50 years so feel I can declare this from experience. And yes we give and expect tips in the sector of travel and tourism, food and beverage, hospitality. We don’t have compulsory tipping or fixed percentages, but it’s a sign of gratitude for a well delivered service and is discretionary. Please share your takes on this topic.
Only wrote on post on tipping, and I doubt I'll write another unless there's some unexpected development. I still stand by what I wrote the first time around.
I think my take on the topic is probably somewhere in between your view and the opposite extreme you mentioned, which is that tipping is always wrong.
I think it's fine for noteworthy service, but that it should be more modest than in the U.S., and certainly not a blanket expectation. I got into it in a lot more depth in the article, as well as into the reasons I and most Italians and long-time expats I know have that view.
Please read it ... I'd be thrilled to get your feedback (and not just on the tipping article, but on any of my posts). Here's the link to "The Tipping Point": https://www.italiandispatch.com/p/the-tipping-point
Another unwritten rule: don't go to church or the opera dressed as if we were going to the gym...
Yes, perfect point!
This is one of my mother's big complaints in the U.S. She doesn't go to the opera, but she never gets tired of complaining about the way people dress when they go to church.
Amen! Agree! I don't see it much in Europe but in the US and Canada, it's very common sadly.
I had an old professor at university in Rome who would take a break halfway through class (a 5 hour studio art course) to go down to the bar to have a cappuccino at 5 pm. It was his merenda and all the women at the bar knew to have it ready when he arrived.
I also had a colleague who would have a cappuccino in place of eating at lunch everyday. It seems that you can have a cappuccino at any time, but it’s a substitute for eating!
I think the rule about cappuccini in the afternoon is broadly true but as you say, it's not universal. But my theory is that it's over-communicated because it's easy to explain and many visitors like feeling like they're in the know.
I am 100% Italian and I can assure you that there is plenty of Italians who love to have a cappuccino after 11:00 a.m. The social media have drummed this myth for years. However they seem to forget that Italy has plenty of regions where it's really cold in the winter and a nice hot cappuccino is welcome any time of the day. What is truly more unusual is to see Italians drinking a cappuccino after lunch or dinner. This is because Italians appreciate a drink that helps digestion like espresso or an amaro. Cappuccino is considered heavy when the stomach is already full.
I'm on your side, Letizia. I've seen more than a few commentators here on Substack and elsewhere pointing out the "cappuccino rule" as if it was a real insight. If there has to be a rule, it should probably be to avoid a cappuccino after a big meal. But it could also be to avoid hot chocolate or a latte macchiato or eggnog after a big meal.
Indeed Eric, thank you for kind reply!
Exactly!! So true, foreigners put too much emphasis on the so-called cappuccino rule making it sound like an eccentricity. Matching foods however is an underestimated art! If we don't make a nice big fuss over what goes in our stomachs, what should we make a fuss over?
My mom did this for most of her working life. She now has acid reflux. Just sayin'.
I'm guilty on the ice charge. I usually ask for ice with my bottled water. It's my American weakness. I must have my drinks cold and in this heat, water rises in temperature in a hurry. However, they always bring it. I've never seen any raised eyebrows. I like your glass cup idea. But I've found Rome bars always put the right amount of milk.
You should hear what they say after you leave, John! Haha.
Seriously, I go through water so quickly in hot weather that it doesn't have time to warm up. I usually get sparkling water and I don't like it diluted, plus I've come to dislike it when the ice touches my teeth.
I also like ice ... makes sense in hot weather.
When I was deep in the renovation of my Venice house I figured out if the engineer or workers said “è casa tua” (we had all agreed to drop the lei when I had no floor or stairs & workers arrived before 7am) meant, that is a horrible idea. Now the house is (almost) finished & everyone can see my vision they have almost come around saying non è male, meaning I don’t hate it. I have even gotten a few Ma è proprio bello signora!
That is very cool! Not just that you understood the workers' "code," but that your vision of what the house should become was the correct one. I bet you already have dozens of stories to tell. Will you write a post about the project once it's all finished?
Last year I wrote an installment every month of the progress & tribulations. I have been trying to decide how to expand on the experience.
That was before I was on Substack, but I'm going to go back and find them. I'll probably hit you with a few questions afterwards.
I’ve been really enjoying reading your articles. Hopefully one day I’ll make it to Italy. Thank you for writing these!
That's very flattering, John. Thank you!
Your reflection about learning these unwritten rules made me think about children with autism and the difficulty they sometimes have with social cues. Understanding those feelings through cross-cultural experiential learning might be a way to build empathy in educators - or at least some lightbulb moments!
What an interesting insight, Jani! I would have never thought of that, but I can see the connection. I wonder if there's any difference in the way autistic children adapt to different cultures. Do you know? I'd be very curious to know more about that.
I didn’t know the term for “l'arte dell'arrangiarsi,” but it’s one of my favourite things about Italy. I’ve spent enough time here to expect problems and inconveniences. But I love how Italians always find a way to fix or circumvent those things, often in the most creative ways!
When Turin hosted the Winter Olympics 19 years ago, workers were still painting the press center and installing the last of the toilets when the journalists began arriving a day or two before the opening ceremonies. I think it's going to be the same story in Milan/Cortina next year. But, somehow, it'll all get done just in the nick of time.
I know Spain more than Italy, but I can think of a few rules that are true both places, like great respect for elders. Other ones like ""strategic lateness" and respect for mealtime are true here and there.
Good one.
Yeah, I think a lot of what I wrote is sort of common across the Mediterranean. I don't know Greece well and have never been to Cyprus, but I'm guessing they're along the same lines.
Colpi d’aria drive me nuts, also don’t sweat because you’ll catch a chill and die thing (when my daughter was at elementary school they never had outdoor recess in case they sweated, caught a chill and died), and also the way everyone is convinced they know when their spleen is hurting- does anyone in any other country even know where their spleen is?? I am not thrilled that ice in drinks is so widespread now, because I hate it and don’t appreciate my drink being diluted. But these are minor things, and what I do appreciate is the Italian approach to food and drink generally, as well as l’arte di arrangiarsi which means that hope is never lost :)
In fact, Louise, I'd be very curious to know your take on my previous post on tipping rules in Italy. Scroll back a little -- it's called "The Tipping Point."
Ooh, good topic! I think tipping is tricky - I would normally always leave a small tip at the bar for coffee, but now I pay for everything with my phone that’s gone, and I often feel bad about it. But I definitely don’t want someone asking if I want to add a tip every time I go to pay. Restaurants are another minefield - if it’s somewhere I don’t know it’s easy to leave a 10 percent tip, but when, as with your experience with your friends, you are known, extras are added, and there’s a discount on the bill - then it all becomes more awkward.
Hahah! I love the spleen comment! I've heard that and if I'd thought of it while I was writing I would have included it. So funny. Thank you.
I agree 100% on ice and colpi d’aria, etc., but your wider point about attitudes is the crux of everything. It's what makes Italians Italian. Thank you for commenting! I'm still laughing about the spleen comment!
What does a painful spleen even feel like. That's hilarious.
I guess you know it when you have it. Then it‘s not hilarious at all. Until then, we can have fun speculating! 😂
The mad thing is I actually know - I had hepatitis when I was young and a swollen spleen is one of the side-effects. However, I’ve never been aware of it again, so I doubt the rest of the population has either - it’s called plain old indigestion people, embrace the ordinary!
I still struggle with the wet hair / when you’re sick cover your throat rules. Some of the ladies at school will still give me slight looks, but they don’t say anything to me anymore. And half the time I put on a scarf just to make them happy!
I find that rules silly -- especially when it's hot out. It can be like an overnight outside and people still think you'll get influenza if your hair is wet!
One of my favourites from years ago was listening to an Italian girl explaining why nobody wanted to wear seat belts in cars in Italy. It went something like this:
"If I get into a car with a male driver, like my boyfriend, and I put the seatbelt on, it means I don't trust his driving and he will be offended and annoyed at me.
If HE gets in the car to drive and puts his seatbelt on, it means he doesn't trust his own driving, so then I'D be scared!
So no one wants to wear a seat belt!"
I've never heard this argument before but it's perfect! Thanks for sharing it!
OMG. So ridiculous. So many interested comments on this post, Eric.
But what do they have to say about the OTHER DRIVER? The one who runs into them head on? Of course, I have learned that Italian logic is nothing like American logic. And to think that it is is completely illogical!
Thank you! I agree that the unwritten rules keep evolving… Do you think many of those are due to pressure from US tourist culture? Internet? Takeaway or to go coffee seems to be one example…
This is an excellent question. I do think Italian and U.S. culture seem to be adopting some of the worst aspects each other's cultures. If you look at one of my newsletter's previous posts (the one called "The Tipping Point") it's about that. Take a look at it -- I'd be curious to know your opinion on that front.
Regardless, there's no doubt foreign influence is chipping away at the culture.
I do see take-away or delivered coffee here but it's usually meant to consumed in some other place. I rarely if ever see people drinking coffee as they walk. Maybe it's because an espresso is gone in two sips. But I'm pleased that practice hasn't been adopted.
Hey, I, too, have seen the take-away coffee (and the signs for it), or I would not have given that example. I started going to Italy in the 1980s as a student (yes, I’m OLD) and have led several adult groups during the last 10+ years. Regardless of how much I try to prepare first-time Italy travelers, the coffee world is always a surprise. BUT, I was also surprised in 2009 to see what you described—when some Sicilian students I was teaching went to “pick up” coffee for several of us, which they brought back on a nicely-wrapped little tray—all disposable items, but wrapped to stay warm so that we could all consume our espressos together, in the same few seconds . . . Since then, I’ve seen tourists with take-away cups of cappuccino—probably only in Venice, Pisa, and Florence. I was wondering about other items.
Since you mentioned it, one other item is tipping. Have you seen that change? I read another Substack article earlier this spring, and it really surprised me by what it advocated for tips. Unfortunately, I don’t seem to be able to access your prior article on tipping . . . Can you send me the link? I would really like to read it and to share it!
Thanks, and I’m delighted to have found your newsletter, thanks to @Alecia Stevens having reposted it!
I saw you found the article; I'll be curious to know your feedback. I think the other article you read it linked to in my article. Take a look at the comments as well ... it's all interesting.
I’d go further. It’s not simply „chipping away“. From some quarters we have e clear evidence that „foreign influence“ is despised and unwanted. There‘s huge kick-back.
There’s a difference between tolerance (cappuccinos at lunch) with actual, structural change.
I couldn't agree more ... There's a great line in The Sun Also Rises from Mike, a secondary character who' asked how he went bankrupt. He said there were two ways, "Gradually and then suddenly." I feel like cultural traditions disappear the same way.
Oh, I was able to find the “tipping” article you wrote. About to read it…
Great article as usual, I love the polizia story. My contribution is dress, Italians dress well and you stand out to them when you don’t. Italian men would never go out in the standard American garb of shorts, t-shirt and cap, although this seems a bit less so in the far south. And my wife confirms from her trips to the hairstylist that going out with wet hair will definitely kill you. As for the cappuccino rule, I wonder if it applies to our favorite coffee popular in Firenze, the macchiatone, since it’s basically a half cappuccino.
I’ve been preoccupied lately so hopefully you’ll indulge a comment on your other recent posts. Great podcast on tipping and once again, you are right but no native Italians were included. Check out this post on reddit: “Quanto è comune lasciare mance ai camerieri?” Over 100 Italians responded and I read the consensus as: No tipping except for extraordinary service or small amounts rounding up, and please don’t bring that terrible American practice over here.
Thank you, Stewart! Well, I already know we agree when it comes to tipping so I won't go into that.
Your point about having too few Italians weighing in on these discussions is well taken. The language is a huge factor, for sure. And my Italian is good, but not good enough to produce an Italian edition of the newsletter. I already spend too much time on it as it is. But I'd love to have more Italians reading and making comments. So if you know any English-speaking Italians please pass the word!
I know the macchiatone, but I've never had one outside of Florence. I think the closest thing here is a "caffe molto macchiato" or a "caffe schiumato" ... I love that these regional differences exist and I hope they remain.
I think this point about language is not only a huge factor in participation of native Italian speakers in these discussions, it is decisive. Cultural understanding is embedded in the language.
May I add to the debate by throwing in some (provocative) ideas & observations?
By definition the above is taken to means that if English speakers do not fundamentally understand the Italian language they also cannot understand Italian culture. Further, if they did, they would be speaking / writing in Italian. It follows, that if you cannot speak the language, i.e. have not learnt or acquired knowledge of the culture you’re talking about in any deep, meaningful way, then you are not qualified to talk about it! In recent weeks we‘ve heard this from some native Italian Substackers and some „outsiders-gone-native“, with some force!
Most (not all) of the comments here (in response to your questions) demonstrate a superficial understanding of Italian culture. Many are made from a „tourist“ point of view or experience, by definition an outsider, perspective. And some, happily, show curiosity for wanting to learn about it which is to be embraced!!! So input from „insiders“ would be embraced.
Interesting is, that in recent weeks there has been some aggressive moves from some Substackers, to prove this point, by responding and participating in debates amongst English speakers about Italy, as above, playing around with using Italian phrases and words in English texts to show a certain superiority of cultural understanding, then by writing in Italian, which of course makes participation for those who cannot converse in Italian, inaccessible. And, in some cases, by actually telling English speakers / Substackers who write in English language, that they are not qualified about Italian culture (by the very fact they do write in English demonstrates outsider status!). It‘s tautological, with no winner. This might be one explanation for why you don’t have )m/any) native Italians participating: the view that „if it‘s not in Italian, it is not meaningful (to us) and has no relevance“.
Returning to your original questions, I agree that insights into „the unwritten social rules“ are very interesting, and there is much value to be gained in sharing experiences between English-writing Substackers on this topic. (The irony is, unwritten then gets written! presumably the reason for your research questions?).
I take the liberty to add: there is certainly, absolutely, no exclusion of native Italians if they want to participate (in discussing this or any other Italy-related cultural issue in English )! An inter-cultural debate would not only be welcomed but it would be enriching for both.
P.S. Great writing! Love your work!
This is the most comprehensive comment I've ever received!
Your point on the language is well taken. I speak Italian well: I've tested at a C1 level and I read books and articles in Italian and in many ways I live as an Italian in a neighborhood with few foreigners. But I could never write this newsletter in Italian.
I have noticed some of the rage from Italians against foreigners who comment about Italy. I've even been a target of it on some previous posts here and on other fora (mostly Reddit). I'm not sure I completely understand it but I'm going to keep trying to.
I am guilty of cajoling Italian friends to comment on articles more than with non-Italian friends. There have been a few comments along the way in Italian from readers who read English but who (like me) prefer not to write for the public in their second or third language. I hope to get more Italian readers over time, though as you correctly point out they will automatically be from a specific subset of Italians.
I also like your comment about writing about unwritten rules. There's a lawyer trick where they'll ask someone a question like, "Have you ever thought of killing your husband?" And even if the witness never had that thought, they had to have it when asked. Still, I mean these rules aren't official anywhere. Like the Italian statute says, "Don't run a red light" but the real rule is "Don't do it in front of a cop."
I enjoyed your long and thoughtful comment. Thank you.
Your comments on language competency are spot on. And I saw it work also the other way, where the complainers were essentially vying to write in Italian (rather than battle with AI-English.) But, by so doing, instead of staying in the debate, they shot themselves in the foot, and lost touch, evidence being in reader/like numbers! But now I see a new strategy developing … which fuels the debate !
I believe I understand where the rage comes from but it’s very complex. I’m writing about it.
I’m genuinely interested in the community you are drawing/addressing becoming more “culturally-empathic” and cohesive.
In the end, it’s not important if comments are obviously “outsider” comments, rather, that through debate “outsiders” are sensitized to the cultural issues and are willing to learn to respect conformity if they want to be really accepted. Here, for some types, there will be challenges.
Conversely, the same transformation is needed from “insiders”. And therein lies some difficulties, yet to be resolved…
Interestingly, we are talking about some of the same principles of tolerance that are needed anywhere in the world where there is conflict between people and their cultures….
I like your comment about the lawyer’s trick. It makes me smile because (as well as architecture, design & business) I studied law. And so I when I made this comment I was aware of, but could not avoid, the implication! I can reassure you though that I never had any inclination to be a policewoman 😂
I will greatly look forward to your post on the language issue ...
I recall your story about the stop sign and the heinous crime that was committed while right in front of the police. I feel like you told that no more than a month ago. It is a good one. A great example about the importance the Italians put on respeto in their culture. Keep writing, I keep reading
Thanks, Donovan! Yes, good memory! I think I sent you the video linked to in the story a few weeks back when I first posted it on YouTube. Does that sound correct?
When I first moved to the U.S. I couldnt understand why all the kids laughed when I told my mom I'd be home late .... "arrivo in ritardo." Now the Italian sounds funny to me.
Yeah, that's a word that sounded weird to me when I first learned it. Same with "lardo" ... I can imagine your confusion when the kids first started giggling at you. "What? Everyone's late sometimes? What's the big deal?" Haha.
I would like to read your ? Next? article about tipping. I work with tourists. Someone somewhere seems to have written that tipping is not the done thing in Italy which is totally untrue. I am an italian citizen of anglophile origin and have lived here for 50 years so feel I can declare this from experience. And yes we give and expect tips in the sector of travel and tourism, food and beverage, hospitality. We don’t have compulsory tipping or fixed percentages, but it’s a sign of gratitude for a well delivered service and is discretionary. Please share your takes on this topic.
Ciao! Thank you for commenting.
Only wrote on post on tipping, and I doubt I'll write another unless there's some unexpected development. I still stand by what I wrote the first time around.
I think my take on the topic is probably somewhere in between your view and the opposite extreme you mentioned, which is that tipping is always wrong.
I think it's fine for noteworthy service, but that it should be more modest than in the U.S., and certainly not a blanket expectation. I got into it in a lot more depth in the article, as well as into the reasons I and most Italians and long-time expats I know have that view.
Please read it ... I'd be thrilled to get your feedback (and not just on the tipping article, but on any of my posts). Here's the link to "The Tipping Point": https://www.italiandispatch.com/p/the-tipping-point